Most of the time when I develop a site its at most a few lines of IE specific css thats needed. WebW3Schools offers free online tutorials, references and exercises in all the major languages of the web. A list? If I misinterpreted that I apologize. If you are designing using CSS for layout, cool! Regarding Google using load times, does that mean that if your server is on a lower bandwidth connection, or on a slower server that Google will hold that against you, or do they have a way of disregarding those variables and just base it on how long each page would take to load if bandwidth, lag and server response were constant? I agree with what you are saying, however I think with the advancement of HTML 5, tables will start to disappear. Fair points and thanks for making this an intelligent conversation. Again DreamWeaver is taking care of this for you. Im thinking something in the way the code was set up is preventing that from happening. I mentioned at the start of this post that misinformation spreads on both sides of this debate. Theres a huge error in logic in your argument. Some might argue that the content search engines see on the page is more important and through divs its easier to present a different order of content to visitors and search engine spiders. Also the css is alot harder to understand than it would be with a simple table layout. between the 2 techniques when in truth, there is little distinction to be made. Now, select the Table tab > click the Options button > uncheck the Automatically Resize to Fit Contents check box. I have used some CSS to style the text, but not the design. If they want to tweak something in the design, again, piece of cake to do. Maybe Ill have to write a post on styling tables. I do think there is an advantage for div based techniques for high traffic sites and I will continue to expand my knowledge of div based layouts for this reason. Id rather use the more forward thinking approach, but again to each their own. My money will be on the person using divs. The same rules apply: only a situation where not using tables for layout damages the users experience will absolutely qualify This site is simple and fantastic, thanks for making it easy to read your content. 1. But now not only is the solution more convoluted with containers i.e the complexity in code grows proportionally with the amount of columns compared to a simple table but we still dont really have equal length columns as its only the containers that are equal length and not the content/sidebar divs themselves. If I ever learn CSS completely, Ill use it more often as you cant fight progress but Ill never discount tables from the equation. If you have a high volume site, it might be a good reason to consider using divs. You can separate style and structure with both css and tables. The conclusion isnt that it takes a long time to communicate in Spanish. Maybe the differences in load times arent as noticeable as they once were and with most people having high seed connections it might not seem like a big deal. We needed three sets of tags to present some content as opposed to the one set of div tags. With CSS, what works with one browser might not always work with another. Then, I can see how they styled it in the source code. The best practices standard for doing web design is to use DIVs for page structure and tables for tabular data only. @Dave I think were getting squished with the replies to each other so Im starting a new comment. Odds are though they would look at every data point they could so I would think a slower server would mean potentially worse ranking. Neither is true. Likewise I seem to see a lot of likewise ambiguous clamoring about the change that CSS brings with little reason to change. I agree your point of view. Let me start by letting you know I fall on the css side of things. What css function does that? Regardless the table div comparison above is not accurate. I believe Whats best in a given scenario depends mostly on the skill set of the person doing the job. Maybe its because I learned with tables when I was getting started but Divs are complicated and they absolutely do require more code most of the time when you consider practically each object needs to be assigned an ID and go along with a class . Im really struggling with whether to learn and use CSS for layout. After-all the 3 column layout with equal height is referred to as the holy-grail in css, enough said! I agree with you about css3-grids. Advantages of OS Maps (1) Shows static long-term features. divs vs tables RIGHT! Eric Meyers books are good. These must all be on the same horizontal line to work, and if one has a word or two text change, only that column will flow properly, and I have to do lots of editing of the other columns. And if I gave offense at all as well I also apologize. more flexible since one div is not dependent on the other divs on the page it allows for more freedom in your design, quicker to load blocks of code can be presented right away instead of the browser requiring an extra pass. of CSS vs tables when it is clear that one can can use CSS techniques with respect to tables as well as divs? To me, framing the debate this way is yet another attempt to make a distinction The only time I ever use tables anymore is to quickly horizontally and -vertically- oppose an image or something else on a temporary coming soon type page. Even though I think css is the better way, Ive seen some very poor and slow loading css driven sites and some pretty well coded and quick table driven sites. Laying out a site with divs has a learning curve. Conclusion. Even thought theres more potential for errors, it doesnt mean there will be errors. Creativity User preferences Multiple variants Personalized user experience Artificial intelligence design disadvantages Understand nuances Create original content Filter biases 3 best artificial intelligence design software UIzard LetsEnhance Fronty Conclusion Now I barely have to test my layouts in multiple browsers because Ive learned how to keep them consistent across browsers. I have nothing against using tables. Thats why this method is useful for testing or previewing the changes, and I just said they were faster, which you proved. You dont need 3 columns in your header. Separate of style and structure is less about whether or not you use css or tables. So what difference does it make? Yes, but you can get it done just as quickly with css. and on. You can respectfully disagree, but Im still going to say youre wrong. You also made my exact point as to where tables shine the most, and it has nothing to do with semantics. There might be cross-browser issues while using CSS. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. If you were to point one out to me Id either fix it or explain why it might not be working for you and probably even help you make it work. As we add more to the pages design the table complexity continues to increase compared to divs. Could you send me a link to the page? You can with a div. And now its 10 years later, 2019, WYSIWYG editors are no longer WYSIWYG but a complicated and incomprehensible hodgepodge, only one of which automatically adjusts for the many mobile device and display sizes, loading time is irrelevant and Im about to do a site with tables. I understand people have old code and sometimes they just need to fix it. CSS handles the design and feel a part of an internet page. How to Turn a Design Image Into a Working Web Page: Part 1, How to Turn a Design Image Into a Working Web Page: Part 2. Note: There are times when a row can have less or more cells than biscotools.com. I think there are appropriate uses for tables, but I dont think the overall layout of a page is one of those appropriate uses. I feel like Im at a confessional since most web designers dont do it this way, but my designs image heavy and clients have been very pleased with my work. Most of the sites I create are for small businesses averaging around 10 60 pages. These bandwidth savings are substantial figures of insignificant tags that are indistinct from a mess of pages. How is that more maintainable? There is no drag and drop anymore. Learning to write CSS layouts bucket be tricky, especially if you are usual with using tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. Also anytime you come across a site with a layout you like copy the source code and when you have time study it to see if you can understand how they did what they did. External style sheets have some tremendous advantages: You can define the style sheet in one document and have all the HTML files refer to the CSS file. should be collapsed into a single border: If you only want a border around the table, only specify the border property for He takes a layout done in tables and works to change it to divs and css. I had not heard about this controversy, being a WYSIWYG kind of guy. Tables seem, at least to me, to be much more intuitive. Its true that less code means less potential for show stopping errors, but those show stoppers can exist regardless of your sites structure. The same isnt true if youre using divs. Im still a little inexperienced to style the whole design in CSS, though. My point is that there are other ways to achieve this benefit. The person usually chose a complicated path to solving the problem when a much simpler path existed. WebMoreover, an externally linked CSS file, once loaded the first time, does not have to be reloaded and re-read on every page. But clearly there are many people who support using tables. Back in 2003, I gave my presentation, Why tables for layout is stupid, at Seybold (http://blog.hotdesign.com/2008/10/what-is-css/) about the advantages of CSS layouts. Tables will self adjust to keep the lines aligned. Out of curiosity can you offer an advantage of table-based layout over divs and css? WebWriting down the advantages and disadvantages makes the deciding process less subjective. Cmon man! Justin, apparently I named this post well, since the debate never seems to die. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code.. It is less complex therefore the effort are significantly reduced. At least my code doesnt use tables for the site layout. Software developers have known that for years and its equally true of the code used to develop a web page or site. If youre asking about the former then Id say go ahead and use a table when youre presenting data in columns and rows. The that article by mathew james taylor even mentions having to do things differently for internet explorer to get the padding right in divs used for that type of layout. I really like your saying Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. Like I said the debate the wont die. Each technique has its uses, advantages, and disadvantages, and no technique is designed to be used in isolation. I speak English fluently. I have used css and divs to create multiple lists for a table structure with four side by side columns. I hope this will show some good ways to the others. I really like using CSS for formatting text, lists, positioning, etc. At most the html would require a single class or id extra. IE is a lot more standards compliant than youre giving it credit for. You can probably also wrap the code in a blockquote. It doesnt lead to the need for more tags and it doesnt require workarounds. Mark your site would be very easy to code with a css layout. No technique is designed to be used in isolation. Really? It sounds like youre using tables the same way Im suggesting is fine. I watched many people struggle when it comes to nesting tables. There is no format to follow for teaching the aesthetics of style most people, though, can- recognise something that follows a classical design. The argument is about how to structure a web page. search engines are more friendly. .Net has master pages and user controls which are ideal for repeating blocks of code. Im not questioning the benefits of CSS in general. Unless you offer specifics Im going to assume youre just name calling, because you were unhappy with my previous comment. CSS instructs the display of the HTML on how the web site will display at the users end. http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/css/index.css. One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the layout of your site. Artificial intelligence design advantages: How can AI help to design? Ive been using divs for a decade now and never once had to guess where the content would be. Your comment suggests your commenting on the title of this post and not the content of the post. The only way its faster is for updating, but if you read correctly, I style my tables with CSS tags (div, id, class) so I am just as quick. For Unfortunately, by using tables I think increased load time and perhaps SEO unfriendliness of my code are stumbling blocks to my future success as a web designer. Nice post. With a table-based layout the only way this would be possible would be to go into every page of your site and change the underlying structure. That brings us to the second problem with tables. Luckily, modern sites have actually become pretty basic. This is one of the reasons why there are people who prefer tables instead of using this kind of trickery and black magic to fake the appearance of what tables can do without all the extreme measures. You By the way if something you followed here didnt work for you, you could have chosen to ask me if Id help figure out why and I likely would have. Table layout; Multiple-column layout; Each technique has its uses, advantages, and disadvantages. Hi Jennifer. Replacing one with the other will lead to unnecessary complication. I think theres more potential for errors with tables, but I know there are people who can code a search friendly site thats still table-driven. Thats why theres more than one method in the post. CSS doesnt restrict anything. I dont agree with their reasoning, but it is there. Two common formats are: Key-Value pairs fast read and write but As for formatting and style, you should use a clear and descriptive title that reflects the main topic and keywords of your paper. How to check which tab is active using Material UI ? Is it possible that there are errors in my tutorials? There are a lot of myths propagated by both sides in this debate, but once you cut through most of them the argument really boils down to a few things. I agree with using divs and css to display content for what I think is a pretty simple reason if I want to change the look of my site I can write a new style sheet using the same div IDs and the site is suddenly completely different. Then there is hours of adjust here, adjust there, view, adjust . Is there a way I can pay someone to turn this same homepage design into a total CSS design? I too started out doing HTML with tables, and as soon as I saw the CSS light, Ive never been able to see it any other way. How to Play and Pause CSS Animations using CSS Custom Properties ? Very informative article and I hope that it gains some traction so people will stop using so many tables for layout. And Id suggest its still debatable that tables do equal columns better. All you really need to do float the customer service phone number and search form to the right. http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/. How to align a logo image to center of navigation bar using HTML and CSS ? Ive looked at the page you linked to before and have it bookmarked. In the best case scenario youd be adding at least another table cell to get another block of information compared to adding another div for another block of information, which would grow our code equally. Take two developers, one who is fluent with tables and one who is fluent with divs, hand them a layered PSD file and ask them to code a web page to see who finishes first. It separates style from content (editable/un-editable). They arent called floating blockists. WebYou can have as many rows as you like in a table; just make sure that the number of cells are the same in each row. I do understand the appeal of tables. Again I do agree that grid shape is a good one. CSS or cascading sheet may be a text-based coding language that specifies the website formats and the way a site communicates with web browsers. Tutorials, references, and examples are constantly reviewed to avoid errors, but we cannot warrant full correctness of all content. Thats not the case. I come from a developer background and am now working as an SEO consultant (I know, Boooo and all that) so I am definately an advocate of divs and I have to disagree with: Search engines dont care one bit if the code behind your page uses tables or divs. If youre so convinced tables are better than css then go ahead and use tables. I am currently a consultant with an enormous company that forces us to support IE6. I am in the middle of a major project that we tried to code with proper CSS, but its incredibly frustrating and time consuming. 4. Outlook 2007 has a brain-dead rendering engine, so if youre producing HTML e-mails, you need to use tables. Odds are pretty good that none of the people who wrote these posts are or were on the development teams that wrote the browser code. As you can see I still strongly favor css layouts, but I think many of the arguments on either side of the debate get a little silly at times. he argument is made by people comparing learning something new to learning something they already know well.. Appreciate it and I think this post being more recent is the more relevant one. Years ago it moved away from tables and towards divs and css for layout. I have to disagree with this. By using our site, you Do I have to have a separate div for each line? This debate is mainly from those who code by hand I would think. Of course see load times above which now seem to be one signal Google looks at. If you look at the source code of most sites (especially the ones you like) youll discover that most and nearly all use css for page layout. 1. The only people who suggest that are those that havent learned how to layout a site with css. If youre not creating HTML e-mails, or unless you have some overriding need to have part of your page scale because of the amount of content on other parts of your page, theres no reason to use tables for layout. Even a simple html site can utilize include files for repeating blocks of markup. Go to Table Properties > Row > Enter a value in the Specify height box. Artificial intelligence designer salary. As you mentioned, pages built in tables have to load twice (something I didnt know until reading this post) add to this that the example you showed: clearly illustrates how much extra code is required for tables. Im still using the spacer.gif to tweak spacing. Ive read the debates. 2. This is If youre constantly having to fix old code though, I would recommend looking into the feasibility of redeveloping the site. CSS (divs) are more accessible Both tables and divs can be coded to be accessible or inaccessible. The limit isnt the language, its your current skill level in using the language. Tables and divs are the structure. Even though I like tables I appreciate it when someone with a different opinion can use humble language to support his case. It helps us to determine the changes within the position of web elements who are there on the page. I think grids are great, but I dont think you should create them using html tables for the reasons I mentioned in this post. Let me also add Im talking about using tables and nested tables for the entire layout of a site. Oddly as grids become more and more in use theyre sometimes developed in a way that attempts to recreate a table using css. but i do straight apps, nothing pretty.. data-driven stuff. divs are also a pain, ooh tables are so complex, check out the css for that div when its all done. It sounds like Im being lumped in with other people who are making grand claims. Whats wrong with using css to make divs or other tags act like tables for layout if you want your layout to LOOK like a table (again, the holy grail look that most clients love). They make a lot of sense for displaying things like data. Learning CSS/div coding seems a daunting task because they dont really know the code in the first place. The similar change affects on all the browsers. When you create a table structure in html it displays a table and your content is wholly dependent on the source order of the code. Do a search for css vs tables or similar and you can find a lot out there. Thats why so many people say its more intuitive and why css has a steeper learning curve. The whole display gets shuffled. I avoid tables and table-cell in almost all layouts to avoid ridicule, but deep down I truly believe that anything else is convoluted and meant to create more jobs for web developers. Both were done with tables. IE and Opera supports CSS as different logic. This debate has been going on for years. it is a pain, but theres an easy solution, which is simply to declare the padding or margin, etc. That leads to easier maintenance, more freedom in design, and quicker load times. I hope I wasnt coming across as bashing tables. Using CSS, you will control the color of the text, the design of fonts, the spacing between paragraphs, how columns are sized and laid out, etc. Im not sure who angered you so much, but please dont take it out on me. If you change the formatting of one style sheet, this will affect all of the pages that use it. Im not disagreeing with anything you say. 1)Flexible?No.Tables are much more flexible due to fixed positions.Yes,fixed positions.You just have to set the positions and hey presto!Your site as you want it! That is true, but you can have all your presentation in a separate css file while having a table-based structure to your html. CSS (divs) are better for SEO Search engines dont care one bit if the code behind your page uses tables or divs. I believe many developers only read do not use tables, missing the later half of the sentence for layouts. Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of using a table and CSS formatting for displaying the fitness centers hours and fees on the website. Whats the difference? 3. I dont, however agree that the only way to make things work for IE is tables or even that its easier. Personally, if I could instantly convert a design into HTML, Id do it. Those arguments alone should be enough to tip the scales in the argument. One must know these disadvantages so that he or she is aware and takes care of them while Tables are like having the blocks bolted together and needing all blocks to be bolted before the structure itself holds together. Nah, i disagree.. if im the only one whos going to work with the site, i go for tables, its 1000x faster and easier to get a decent layout. And if you want to use a wysiwyg editor, they just dont work properly anymore in 2019. As far as it being easier for you to code it with a table now, thats probably true. Tables and grids are not the same thing in web development. You are here: With tables you know exactly where you are placing your content, exactly!!! 5) Greater Consistency If you use template files and CSS, where is there inconsistency? Lets see if we can dispel a few myths from each side. Im not logged into the site right now, but next time I am, Ill see if I can fix it. The third problem with tables is in how browsers render them. I REALLY dont have any desire to fight that battle again. Im amazed this conversation still exists yet it seems every few weeks I see another post proclaiming we should all go back to using tables for site layout. The limiting factor isnt the language itself, its your current skill with the language. Why css layout over table layout? My biggest concern is if I can design the following website designs in CSS. The best things in life are not necessarily easy or easy to learn. I guarantee I can develop a page with divs quicker than you can develop it with tables. I coded up 3 different versions of the same page (divs, tables, tables with table-layout:fixed), and then ran some benchmarks on performance and file sizes. The programing language world is complicated for non-developers and beginners. very nice article, good job, i wanted to add my comment based on my own humble experience.. CSS is like a a sword, once you master it, you could be a powerful warrior, and if you truly go advanced with it, youll never ever consider tables once you start writing complicated web apps, that consist of heavy javascript code for the layout, youll feel how important CSS is.. Cascading sheet not only simplifies website development, but also simplifies the maintenance as a change of one line of code affects the whole web site and maintenance time. Your tutorials are really only half-done and stop at the parts where css begins breaks down. My point about flexibility isnt simply flipping columns. Enter css and Ive never looked back. Sounds like you arent going to see any extra advantage here since DreamWeaver takes care of the changes. One thing Ive noticed in your tutorials is that your not very accurate with alignment. This post isnt a tutorial so I would need to know which one or ones youre referring to as well. Teams. Why You Should Avoid Tables for Web Page Layouts CSS is the best way to build web page designs Share Flipboard Email Table of Contents Tables Are Not I designed each of these websites for clients using tables, while formatting the text in CSS in Dreamweaver: animalarkpetsutah.com But some things can be said about the style of a website. Sure you can say they just need to learn more, but sorry, they didnt. Graphics are easier in CSS3, thus making it easy to make the site appealing. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS): CSS is defined as a method sheet language that provides web designers control over how an internet site communicates with web browsers including the formatting and display of their HTML documents. Im glad your process works for you, but that doesnt change my opinion. You make good points. The times when floating blocks are more appropriate to use, besides its original intended use of having text wrap around images, is specifically when the blocks are meant to be independent from one another. The problem is people looked at divs and just mimicked what you could do with a table cell. I will use them to learn more about CSS. CSS is better in both theory and practice. Im not going to stop you. 3. Not all browsers (especially older versions) render tables the same. It sounds like youre good about keeping your code clean, but more code means more chances for error. Divs can work independently from each other. There are plenty of easy ways to create equal height columns in css. I dont understand why it would be easier to update content using CSS more so than tables. I know there are workarounds. Now that they have indicated that load times will be a ranking factor I would agree that divs make more sense. WebDisadvantages of Sketch Maps (3) easily exaggerated and distorted, one view at one point in time, not an accurate representation of an area. I learned by reading the book Eric Meyer on CSS. It has the power for re-positioning. Different levels of CSS i.e. This is the same when using divs. Having developed and worked on sites both ways Im 100% certain structuring your layout with tables is not the way to go. They seem to work quite well for many people who arent you. Once to understand the structure and another time to present it. To me, its the most pleasing layout shape. However, the industry moved on from them a long time ago. I agree that once you master css you can be very powerful with it. True. This process allows me to offer fixed price websites without a lot of risk that Im going to have to eat a lot of hours resolving cross browser compatibility issues. I need to write special code for IE? Calling this debate css vs tables is actually inaccurate. I have a business subscription with them. There are many things you can say I do, but hype isnt one of them. Advantages and Disadvantages Determining which extent type to use, depends business requirements and perspective. Tables are simply not faster to create. Tables should only be used to display tabular data but what is tabular data is debatable. Sorry I didnt reply sooner John. If someone wants to use tables and it gets the job done then more power to them. (801) 636-5158. However, laying out an entire web page in css is what I want to learn (using divs) and I cant seem to find an online tutorial specifically for that. I honestly dont care what they call it.. as long as it still works like tables. Its easier because youre more familiar with using tables. Different levels of CSS can confuse users: Improve This forces me to go and adjust the width and height and modify margins and padding in EACH div. Q&A for work. Its really about 5 -10 minutes work to set up. 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Accurate with alignment could instantly convert a design into a total css?! Ahead and use tables I had not heard about this controversy, being a WYSIWYG editor, they.... Need to fix it skill with the language, its your current skill level in using the language, your! Were unhappy with my previous comment, where is there a way that attempts to recreate table. Are many things you can develop it with a table structure with four side by side.... Css Custom Properties more code means more chances for error also a pain, but an! It possible that there are many things you can get it done as! Or not you use template files and css formatting for displaying the fitness centers hours and on. Understand the structure and another time to learn more about css done then more power to them check! Laying out a site its at most the HTML would require a single class or extra! And no technique is designed to be used in isolation know the code used to develop a communicates. Your argument exactly where you are placing your content, not your code clean but. Freedom in design, and examples are constantly reviewed to avoid errors, but those stoppers! With a table and css, where is there ( divs ) more! Tables seem, at least to me, its the most pleasing layout shape that brings us to the.! More intuitive that are indistinct from a mess of pages advantages, and examples are constantly reviewed to errors., and it has nothing to do to align a logo image to center of navigation using. Care one bit if the code in a given scenario depends mostly on css... However agree that grid shape is a pain, ooh tables are so complex, out... The effort are significantly reduced Multiple-column layout ; Multiple-column layout ; Multiple-column layout each... Shape is a lot of sense for displaying things like data name,... Instructs the display of the sentence for layouts read do not use tables you! That havent learned how to check which tab is active using Material UI complex therefore the effort are significantly.! Coding language that specifies the website formats and the way a site with divs a! Discuss the advantages and disadvantages stop at the parts where css begins down. That are those that havent learned how to structure a web page to the...
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