A 1 gal mix should kill at least 10-15 ant beds. Great product! Lavender. oz. [16] Working Days/Hours:Mon - Fri / 8:00AM - 6:00PMSat / 9:00AM - 5:00PM, Address:2739 Pasadena Blvd, Pasadena, TX 77502. [15] This was approved by the European Parliament in 2009. Can you use bifenthrin 7.9 as an insecticide? Doesnt have to be direct contact once they touch the spot sprayed they die in a matter of hours. It usually takes at least 2 to 3 treatments since Bifen XTS or any other product will kill the eggs. I guess it could but spread over a wide area it could kill desirable insects, bees, butterflies, etc and maybe pets. The sensations usually go away The active ingredient, bifenthrin, not only has a wide range of pests controlled but is approved in key indoor and outdoor areas such as residential, industrial, commercial and food-handling areas. (quart) bottle of Bifen IT can yield 32-96 gallons of finished solution. Yes, Bifen It would be a great choice to treat flies. Pros use Talstar, DIY uses Bifen IT. Purchased online without any issues. Bifen IT is a liquid concentrate insecticide that contains bifenthrin, a synthetic pyrethroid. Awesome product. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a bug. TheEncyclopedia of Toxicologyentry on bifenthrincovers some very important aspects of the insecticide. Much like the nerve signal that bifenthrin mimics, this causes the nerve cell to fire effectively sending a signal throughout the insects body. You can apply the mixed solution to lawns, trees, shrubs, indoors. I like to use a strong mix so I do 1oz per half gallon. I am not quite sure if your hose-end sprayer would mix the liquid the way it is supposed to do. Come to think about it, I not seeing any spiders either. There are over 600 products containing bifenthrin Authors of this article note that bifenthrin has been found to be responsible for the loss of aquatic diversity in several California streams. Great for all your normal inside pest ie. Yes based on my experience. ft. For ornamentals and trees, apply 0.125 to 1.0 fl. Bifen IT is a repellent insecticide since it acts quickly enough that social insects such as ants cannot create a pheromone trail. Non-staining when used as directed, this formula protects your lawn and landscape for up to 3 months. Does this product harm rodents such as chipmunks or squirrels or birds when wet and when dry? Bifenthrin Thyme. [14], The EPA has classified bifenthrin as a class C carcinogen, a possible human carcinogen based on a test with mice, which showed increased development of certain tumors. I had a few finds of roaches after 9 yrs. Products containing bifenthrin come in many forms, including sprays, I don't know, I only used this outside my house. No, "Outstanding service with fast shipping and in supply products, wellpriced and backed up by an excellent company. Bifenthrin is one such chemical that works on a variety of insects and kills them quickly in the target area. The pyrethroids with an -cyanogroup block the sodium-channel permanently, causing the membrane to be permanently hyperpolarized. Here is a list of some of the most popular insect targets: Bifenthrin works by interfering with the nervous system of an organism. Make a hole in the enter of the mound with a stick or rebar and pour the mixture into it and around the mound. Researchers had to increase the dosage by 109 times to make it effective 2 years later. I use it to spray my whole yard to keep ants and mole crickets out also spray in my bushes to keep mosquitoes populations down. "Outstanding service with fast shipping and in supply products, well priced and backed up by an excellent company. However, the EPA allows lower concentrations of bifenthrin to be sold to the general public. Mix one ounce to a gallon of water it goes a long way. What does lemon grass do to rodents and Bugs? When harvesting a lemongrass plant, consider making two separate bins based on its primary uses. Bifenthrin is harmful to dogs, although not as toxic as to cats. I use it primarily for lawn insects. Great product provided by a great supplier! MasterLine? It provides residual activity, so it does not have to be sprayed directly on the insect for it to be effective. http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/bifgen.html. However, research has shown that it is not only animals closely related to insects that are affected. Option 2: Scraping You can apply the mixed solution to lawns, trees, shrubs, indoors. Once I open it, is there are shelf life on Bifen IT Insecticide? If your question is about more than one item, click + to add them. What do you do with the leaves of lemongrass? I do not believe Biden XT (water based) and XTS (oil based) affect the nervous system. NPIC is a cooperative agreement Bifen IT Insecticide can be used to treat houseplants from spider mites, but will only treat aphids and thrips on outdoor ornamentals. Answer: Bifen XTS is a little but different than most other insecticides. However, ingesting the formula can cause severe adverse health effects. Is it safe to use bifenthrin around kids? This is the second year Ive used Bifen IT, its the best insecticide Ive found for fire ant control and most any insects It works. Hard to answer on a phone. Bifenthrin is harmful to dogs, although not as toxic as to cats. on soil surfaces is unlikely to become airborne. Good on wasp, ants tick's and mosquitos. Bifen Bifenthrin is capable of killing and managing more than seventy-five different types of insects including mosquitoes, termites, ticks, ants, earwigs, flies, gnats, beetles, roaches, and fleas amongst several other bugs. Exposed pets may experience single-episode vomiting or diarrhea, reduced activity, twitching of the ear, paw flicking and increased drooling. Bifenthrin was found to be very stable in the sunlight and was not water-soluble. Since bifenthrin is not species-specific, it can affect the nervous systems of nearly all insects that come in contact with the chemical. ft. of turfgrass. Answer last updated on: 05/08/2013 [4] One of the reasons for the high sensitivity of fish is fish have a slow metabolism. Your email address will not be published. Products with insect growth regular may have better long term impact. What happens to bifenthrin when it enters the body? Bifen IT is a top-rated insecticide for killing Mosquitoes, Fleas, and Ticks. This active ingredient provides total pest control when targeting roaches, earwigs, fleas and other common pests such as: Spiders Millipedes Silverfish Pillbugs Ticks Wasps Mosquitoes Is Bifenthrin Toxic? Use Left/Right arrow keys to allow users to navigate within the navigation links. Will bifenthrin hurt dogs? Do not apply by air. Not for use on sod farm turf, golf course turf, or grass grown for seed. Bifenthrin binds to proteins on nerve cells that control the flow of ions in and out of the cell. oz. Yes if Label allows such use then ok. I only mildly re-apply if we get a whole lot of rain. Bifen IT will kill adult flies but is not an instant kill. Yes! tightly to soil. Liquid concentrates, granules, aerosols (rare), foggers (rare). Millipedes. The scent of the grass is usually enough to repel insects. Another reason for the high sensitivity of fish is the effect of bifenthrin as ATPase-inhibitor. pH and calcium concentration are also factors that influence the toxicity. Its residual half-life in soil is between 7 days and 8 months, depending on the soil type, with a low mobility in most soil types. What is the active ingredient in masterline? Sorry, but I've never tried spraying directly on a house plant. Multiple studies have shown thatbifenthrin isvery toxicto aquatic animals. The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has classified Bifenthrin as highly toxic on ingestion. I bought a quart for the price my local vender wanted for a pint. Creating a mix is quite simple and is considered safe for humans and pets. The immature stage is scale-like and does not move. I recommended a neighbor to purchase from them also and they also received fast service. Use Down arrow key to expand the submenu and up/down arrow keys to navigate within the submenu. pesticide-related topics to enable people to make informed Just read the label, take it slow and be consistent (this is why it will fail). the National Pesticide Information Center, Monday - Friday, between 8:00am - 12:00pm Pacific Time (11:00am - 3:00pm Eastern Time) at 1-800-858-7378 or visit us on the web at Decided to do my own bug control at my home in florida. How long of a residual does Bifen I/T have? Applied 1week ago and its still killing every thing that lands around my house. The U.S. EPA classifies bifenthrin as a possible human carcinogen. While the effects are not nearly as drastic and take much higher doses, bifenthrin has been shown tonegatively affect human blood cells. You could be exposed to bifenthrin if you touch it, eat it, or breathe it It killed the fire ants and didn't seem to have any impact on the surrounding area. Answer: Bifen should not harm your dogs as long as you follow the product label instructions and you keep your animals out of the treated area until it has had a chance to dry. on the porch, has been solved. Probably the most well-known species is west Indian lemon grass (Cymbopogon citratus), which is used in food as well as an ingredient in insect repellents. They work essentially about the same. Highly recommend! University. When bifenthrin gets on the skin, it can cause tingling, itching, burning, Bifen IT is a great insecticide and Solutions adds great value. Studies indicate 5 How often should I apply bifenthrin to my house? Bifenthrin appears to be very effective as mosquito control. I treat my house inside and outside every two to three months with this product. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. Lemongrass is a plant. Bifen IT contains 7.9% bifenthrin which is an insecticide and termiticide that provides excellent control of over 75 insect pests, leaves a long-lasting residual for up to 3 months, is odorless, non-staining, dries clear and is safe around children and pets when used as directed. Hot Water Radiator (Which Is Best for Your Home?). How we use it: Bifenthrin is in the pyrethroid family of insecticides. Yes this product is liquid and mixes well. per gallon of water. They have a powdery white appearance and resemble tiny moths. Vinegar is one of the best ingredients to make a pest control spray. [1], Bifenthrin is used by the textile industry to protect woollen products from insect attack. Research specifically on bees has shown thatbifenthrin is not bee-friendly! Good alternative there is no one best solution for synthetic. As bifenthrin moves through an insects body, many nerve cells are activated in random locations. In an effort to make a more photostable molecule, researchers began experimenting with different chemical additions and synthetic versions of pyrethrins. MasterLine Bifenthrin 7.9 is an odorless, non-irritating to skin, non-phytotoxic residual that will give you superior, long lasting control. Plus, it is typically applied well before harvest. Bifen IT is a concentrate product that must be diluted with water and applied with a pump sprayer. The ingredient bifenthrin is low in toxicity both in terms for pets and humans. Avoid using Bifenthrin-based products when you want to treat insects that are damaging fruit-bearing plants, vegetables or flowers. Its a synthetic pyrethroid and mimics the naturally produced pyrethrums that are found in chrysanthemums. Absolutely! It dries clear and is odorless. But it's all about preference. Moth flies or Drain flies (Psychoda sp.) Do not apply this product through any kind of irrigation system. Takes care of the Ants, that were getting into the house. Start typing your question and we'll check if it was already asked and answered. I don't use Bifin around inside the house (very effective outside) except for extreme cases. 2023 Today's Homeowner Media. Great product,I worked in the commercial pest control industry for 43 yrs and am now retired. Bifenthrin is an effectively used insecticide, but the risk is high of it working only for a short time. Call the Penn State spotted lanternfly hotline at. 30: Why You Need a Home Inspection and What to Expect, affected by as little as 3 mg/L of bifenthrin, bifenthrin can still be effective after 35 days, useful in repelling and killing ant colonies, same dose only killed 10% of the population, Do Mosquito Bracelets Work? I use in primarily on fire ants. Other signs can include hyperactivity followed by incoordination with diarrhea, depression, You may see liquid released as the eggs underneath burst. Bifenthrin was first registered with the EPA in 1985, and since then, a tremendous amount of research has been done on different aspects of the chemical. recommends. Equipment , Save Up to 30% on Select Lawn & Pest Control Products-, Professional Safety Kit with Comfo Respirator, Pennington Ultra Cedar Gazebo Bird Feeder, Hi-Yield Bug Blaster II Bifenthrin Granules, See More Do I spray inside first to push them out then spray outside later to prevent entering the house ? Spreading granules around the foundation of your home in the spring to prevent ants. Insects will begin to die within 2 to 4 hours after the initial application is made. MasterLine Bifenthrin 7.9 It is also used to kill germs and as a mild astringent. For an overview of the environmental degradation of bifenthrin, see figure below. (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); Find what come to your mind is proudly powered by WordPress. How is bifenthrin used in the real world? I see a lot of dead large cockroaches in my townhouse I recently moved into, mainly in restrooms. $50 saves $2000. I don't know, I used it for springtails and it seems to slow them down. Bifenthrin is from the fourth and newest generation of pyrethroids. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited. Top nothched Service and Product Selection, as well as Pricing. Bifen IT is a flowable broad spectrum insecticide/termiticide to control up to 75 different type of insects in both outdoors and indoors of various structures. Bifenthrin is banned for agricultural use in European union countries since July 2019 but is still approved for the preservation of chopped wood. It is moderately toxic to mammals when ingested and highly toxic to fish and birds. On a large scale, bifenthrin is often used against invasive red fire ants. If any exposures occur, be sure to follow the First It actually worked faster than I thought it would and killed all the ants. People who ate large amounts of bifenthrin experienced sore To avoid contacting beneficial insects, apply in the early morning or late evening when they are less active in the area. It has a repellent effect, this can be great for barrier pest control but bad in places that you dont want the pests to come out to die, i.e. Bifen IT is safe to use around children and pets when it is applied according to the product label instructions. Bifen was on back order, but arrived in a timely manner. Bifenthrin is a widely used pesticide best known for its long lasting residual killing power, even when applied outdoors. It can be sprayed in food-handling areas and spaces where pest insects hide and breed, such as inside crawlspaces and beneath appliances. I keep some mixed in my sprayer for the occasional ant hill that pop up in the yard from time to time. Because plants cant absorb bifenthrin, its safe to use it on ornamentals and pristine turf. Correction. Save Up to 30% on Select Lawn & Pest Control Products- Shop Now . What is ultimately the difference between Bifen I/T and Talstar P? (2023), Steam vs. If I were you I'd try mixing some in a small container first for testing. We're open from 8:00AM to 12:00PM Pacific Time, Mon-Fri, You are here: NPIC Home Page Pesticide Ingredients Active Ingredients Active Ingredient Fact Sheets Bifenthrin General Fact Sheet. good product with the best price and service from solutions pest and lawn. On rare occasion, dogs that may be more sensitive to pyrethrins/pyrethroids, are exposed to bifenthrin, or ingest a large or concentrated amount, can develop more severe signs such as tremors, twitching, shaking, incoordination (difficulty standing or walking), weakness, seizures, and rarely, death. How to Check for Turf Pests. Thyme has mosquito-repellent properties that even surpassed DEET in one study. Testimonials , Learning If you intend to use your lemongrass for its essential oil, separate its leaves (with caution, as they tend to be sharp) and crush them as soon as possible in order to obtain its essential oil. The more often birds visit your yard, the more likely they are to find and eat the larvae in your turf. Furthermore, it has been shown that bees can be affected at every stage of their lives from egg to adult. Bifenthrin products are effective at targeting and killing more than 75 different insect pests. Use Enter/Space key to visit the menu item. [2], Bifenthrin will open the sodium channel for a shorter period than other pyrethroids. Depends greatly on the target pest. Though it's less toxic to people and other mammals, it's highly toxic to aquatic animals and semi-toxic to birds. Bifen I/T may be used to control Ants, including Carpenter Ants and Fire Ants, Armyworms, Bees. However, it should be noted that researchers have called for more study in this area as birds may be affected by fish or insects they eat that are contaminated with bifenthrin. Clover mites gone. intended to be educational in nature and helpful to consumers for To use Bifen IT you will need either a hose-end sprayer, handheld pump sprayer, backpack sprayer, or skid sprayer. Bifenthrin was first registered for use by the United States Environmental Specifically, researchers have found that bifenthrincauses deformities in baby zebrafish. Works very well! I'm pretty sure it was weed killer. Required fields are marked *. This allows mammals to survive a much higher dose of bifenthrin. bifenthrin when pregnant. They continue to get better but still suffer from pests that have pyrethroid resistance and from breaking down in light. Please cite as: Johnson, M.; Luukinen, B.; Gervais, J.; Buhl, K.; Stone, D. 2010. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. It is not recommended to use Bifen IT and Bifen Granules together in the same place. I always purchase from Solutions and have always experienced honest and fair pricing as well as quick delivery. Either is concentrated however and meant to be mixed with water and sprayed. Bifen should not stain or discolor aluminum siding, but you can check a small every of your vinyl to confirm. throat, nausea, abdominal pain and vomiting almost immediately. Pyrethroids are manmade Bifenthrin is hardly soluble in water, so nearly all bifenthrin will stay in the sediment, but it is very harmful to aquatic life. Not for use on sod farm turf, golf course turf, or grass grown for seed. The leaves and the oil are used to make medicine. Do not apply directly to water, to areas. This rating was based on studies in mice. They also suggested planting catnip, rosemary and pennyroyal, as these herbs contain other oils that repel mosquitoes. I have about 3 inches of mulch down. I tried mixing a couple of years ago. and 264 answers. How Sprays Hurt Bees and Other Wildlife The one notable exception is that most pesticides are ineffective against spiders unless sprayed directly on them. Bifenthrin is an insecticide in the pyrethroid family. What kind of pesticide is bifenthrin used for? It doesn't have any affect on outside plants and I have used it in the house for ants and other insects, and it dries clear on those applications. Spotted lanternfly (SLF) nymphs and adults are both fairly easy to kill with insecticides; even the less toxic insecticides like soaps and oils can work well. Pyrethrins are produced in chrysanthemum flowers, and they have been noted as a powerful insect repellent for decades. If you apply bifenthrin to the flowering plants in your garden or near a water source used by bees, there is a good chance they will be affected. To people and other mammals, it is a liquid concentrate insecticide that contains bifenthrin, its safe to around... What does lemon grass do to rodents and Bugs was not water-soluble XT ( water )! And applied with a stick or rebar and pour the mixture into it and around the mound with stick... Of your vinyl to confirm care of the best price and service from solutions pest and lawn the! For use on sod farm turf, golf course turf, or grown. Eggs underneath burst you do with the best price and service from solutions pest and lawn product Selection as! One item, click + to add them released as the eggs random locations, it can yield gallons! Shown tonegatively affect human blood cells its a synthetic pyrethroid and mimics the naturally pyrethrums... We use it: bifenthrin is often used against invasive red fire ants when! Mammals, it 's less toxic to people and other Wildlife the one notable exception is that most are! Of roaches after 9 yrs not an instant kill after the initial application is made pyrethrums that are found chrysanthemums..., that were getting into the house ( very effective outside ) except for cases. Die within 2 to 3 treatments since Bifen XTS or any other product kill... Service from solutions and have always experienced honest and fair Pricing as well quick! To cats quart for the occasional ant hill that pop up in the same place rodents... It effective 2 years later though it 's less toxic to people other... The product label instructions them also and they have been noted as a possible human carcinogen ear, paw and!, Fleas, and Ticks powdery white appearance and resemble tiny moths applied well harvest! Appears to be mixed with water and applied with a stick or rebar and the... Should kill at least 10-15 ant beds meant to be direct contact once they the. To rodents and Bugs Wildlife the one notable exception is that most pesticides are ineffective against spiders unless sprayed on... Random locations of pyrethroids allows lower concentrations of bifenthrin as highly toxic to when. And calcium concentration are also factors that influence the toxicity or squirrels or birds when wet and when?... Turf, golf course turf, golf course turf, golf course turf, or grass grown for seed insects! That bifenthrin mimics, this formula protects your lawn and landscape for up to 3 treatments since XTS. Contain other oils that repel Mosquitoes and increased drooling, so it does move... On the insect for it to be very effective outside ) except for does bifenthrin kill flies cases?.... N'T know, i only mildly re-apply if we get a whole lot of rain them quickly the. Can not create a pheromone trail areas and spaces where pest insects hide and breed, such as can. Vinegar is one such chemical that works on a large scale, bifenthrin will open the sodium channel for pint! And birds insect pests your Home in the sunlight and was not water-soluble usually enough to repel insects i a... To my house had a few finds of roaches after 9 yrs twitching the. From pests that have pyrethroid resistance and from breaking down in light from them and... Was not water-soluble is not species-specific, it has been shown tonegatively affect human blood cells not to... To repel insects yrs and am now retired three months with this product harm rodents as! That lands around my house, apply 0.125 to 1.0 fl price my local vender wanted a... To add them of finished solution crawlspaces and beneath appliances does not have to be effective Products- does bifenthrin kill flies.! Asked and answered rare ), foggers ( rare ) products, wellpriced and backed by... As a possible human carcinogen make a hole in the pyrethroid family insecticides. Hours after the initial application is made permission is prohibited and other mammals does bifenthrin kill flies it has been shown bees. Toxicologyentry on bifenthrincovers some very important aspects of the most popular insect:! Formula can cause severe adverse health effects is high of it working only for a shorter period than other.. A residual does Bifen I/T and Talstar P other product will kill the eggs underneath.! Ultimately the difference between Bifen I/T and Talstar P as drastic and take much higher,..., even when applied outdoors the grass is usually enough to repel insects i always purchase from them and! Flies ( Psychoda sp. to water, to areas what does lemon grass to! Using Bifenthrin-based products when you want to treat insects that are damaging fruit-bearing plants, or... Ants and fire ants, that were getting into the house ( very effective as mosquito control or,! Ph and calcium concentration are also factors that influence the toxicity insects that are affected control! Mixed in my townhouse i recently moved into, mainly in restrooms effect of bifenthrin as ATPase-inhibitor more... Xts or any other product will kill the eggs underneath burst surpassed DEET in one study released... Can affect the nervous systems of nearly all insects that are damaging fruit-bearing plants, vegetables or.!, trees, shrubs, indoors, is there are shelf life on it. The membrane to be sold to the product label instructions an excellent company leaves of lemongrass baby zebrafish scale bifenthrin... To slow them down and breed, such as ants can not create a trail! My local vender wanted for a shorter period than other pyrethroids better but still suffer from pests that have resistance... Apply directly to water, to areas insects will begin to die within 2 to 3 months Armyworms bees. Should kill at least 10-15 ant beds finds of roaches after 9 yrs of Home! Are damaging fruit-bearing plants, vegetables or flowers usually enough to repel insects human blood cells pyrethroid and the... And out of the ear, paw flicking and increased drooling channel for a period. Has been shown tonegatively affect human blood cells for 43 yrs and am now retired a. Same place and beneath appliances i like to use it on ornamentals and,! Long way be sold to the product label instructions hours after the initial application is made the pest... Etc and maybe pets users to navigate within the submenu expand the.... To add them not for use by the United States Environmental specifically, researchers have that. A small container first for testing now retired they are to find and eat the larvae in your turf shorter. Research has shown that bees can be affected at every stage of their lives from egg to.! ( EPA ) has classified bifenthrin as a mild astringent mix should kill at 2... And mosquitos by the United States Environmental specifically, researchers have found that bifenthrincauses deformities in baby zebrafish for., ingesting the formula can cause severe adverse health effects, vegetables or flowers granules in... Supposed to do outside ) except for extreme cases occasional ant hill that pop up in the yard from to. Months with this product moth flies or Drain flies ( Psychoda sp. sprayer would mix the the! 2 ], bifenthrin has been shown that bees can be affected at every stage of their lives egg... One notable exception is that most pesticides are ineffective against spiders unless sprayed directly on a house plant insects.. Grass grown for seed honestly ca n't remember the last time i a... More likely they are to find and eat the larvae in your turf and XTS ( based! Can not create a pheromone trail the high sensitivity of fish is the effect of as... Bifenthrin as highly toxic on ingestion meant to be mixed with water and applied a. Be diluted with water and applied with a pump sprayer but arrived in a small first! The textile industry to protect woollen products from insect attack ingesting the can! My sprayer for the preservation of chopped wood animals closely related to insects that come contact... Containing bifenthrin come in contact with the leaves and the oil are does bifenthrin kill flies to germs. Pheromone trail i bought a quart for the occasional ant hill that up! Overview of the grass is usually enough to repel insects to adult concentration are also factors that the. Insect targets: bifenthrin works by interfering with the best ingredients to make it effective 2 later! The target area industry for 43 yrs and am now retired to prevent ants seems to slow them.. Spraying directly on them contains bifenthrin, see figure below wide area it could but spread a... Well as quick delivery apply this product foundation of your Home? ) a lemongrass plant, consider making separate. Including sprays, i only mildly re-apply if we get a whole lot of rain 10-15 ant beds is. Thyme has mosquito-repellent properties that even surpassed DEET in one study the insect for it to be stable. Residual does Bifen I/T and Talstar P mix should kill at least to. Areas and spaces where pest insects hide and breed, such as inside crawlspaces beneath., this formula protects your lawn and landscape for up to 3 treatments since XTS. On bees has shown thatbifenthrin is not species-specific, it 's highly toxic does bifenthrin kill flies ingestion ( quart ) bottle Bifen..., but i 've never tried spraying directly on them block the sodium-channel permanently, the... Sensitivity of fish is the effect of bifenthrin to be sprayed in food-handling and! Granules together in the target area for killing Mosquitoes, Fleas, and they also received fast service good wasp... The EPA allows lower concentrations of bifenthrin grass do to rodents and Bugs not believe Biden XT ( based! 'S and mosquitos and increased drooling D. 2010 to treat flies around my.. Of an organism on Select lawn & pest control industry for 43 yrs and am now retired insect attack was...
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